The UFC Weight Game
Posted on March 27, 2011, 04:36 PM by codemasterThe It is an issue which affects the entire sport of MMA, and yet, everyone from fans to fighters accepts without much question the strange way weight classes are interpreted in the UFC.
Weigh-in vs. Fighting Weight
When I first started watching MMA, it seemed rather odd that the fighters I was watching in a bout were in the weight class in which they were fighting. I soon learned that by the rules of the UFC, as long as you weighed at the maximum or less of the weight class one day before the fight--then it was all good.
As I watched more and more fights it seemed to me that LWs were huge, and WWs were enormous--MWs were HWs and LHWs were not light, but true HWs. It seemed that fighters were getting bigger as time went on--which makes no sense, since there is a fixed weight class, right?
The Weight Game
This is the weight game of the UFC. There might be a few fighters today who fight at the weight they weigh-in at, but they are becoming fewer with each event. These days, most fighters cannot afford to NOT play the weight game, since it affects their chances in the octagon so much. This strange loophole in determining weight before a fight is inherited from boxing and wrestling where drastic weight cuts before a match are commonplace.
In Dana White's recent video blog, he jokingly asked if Anthony Johnson was 280 lbs, to which Johnson replied, no, he was 195 lbs. This is 25 lbs higher than the maximum weight allowed in the WW division. In fact, Johnson was fighting at LHW in a WW contest.
In the same video blog, White (who is not a small man) hugged a huge Anderson Silva from behind--and it was clear that Silva was no middle weight--or even light heavy weight--he was a true heavy weight, and not due to fat, but rather, it was only his natural weight.
The Competitive Pressure to Cut Weight
Early in GSP's career, he walked around at 180, then later 185, and after the UFC 100 fight with the massive Thiago Alves, he upped is walk around weight to 190-195--and that is with not one ounce of fat. So why did GSP increase his walk-around weight? In the fight with Alves, Alves's extra weight made a difference. He was harder to keep down and control on the mat, and many times Alves rose to his feet, not through technical brilliance, but by sheer muscle and power. There is no doubt that in wrestling and ground control, increased muscle mass is a distinct advantage.
Mass Gives Fighter's an Edge
As most MMA fans know, the power in striking is simple physics, and a big part of the equation for measuring the power of a strike is related to mass. After UFC Fight Night 24, when Brendon Schaub was asked about his point deduction, he claimed he did not care since this was a HW bout and would not go the distance. As many MMA fans have realized, as you go up the levels of weight classes, KOs become more common--and this is directly related to the muscle mass of the fighters.
So while fighting weight is not the sole factor in a victory, fighters know it is a huge advantage coming into a fight. Also, if their opponent is cutting weight, they must follow suit, or be put at a disadvantage before the bell even sounds.
How Much Can a Fighter Lose?
It seems the average for weight gain from weigh-in to fight night is roughly 15 - 25 lbs. If a fighter loses much more than that, then it can seriously affect cardio and stamina. And not all fighters are the same in their ability to cut weight and fight their best. Jake Shields recently cut more than 30 lbs for his fight with Martin Kampmann and was gassed early in his fight--which he barely won--some say he lost. Both Anthony Johnson and Thiago Alves have looked bad in some fights and gassed, and many would attribute this to the drastic weight cuts prior to their fights. Both fighters have not made weight in fights, much to Dana White and the UFC's displeasure.
BJ Penn and Frankie Edgar have had success even though they did not go through massive weight cuts, but this is more of a testament to their skill in defeating much larger opponents, than it is an argument that fighters should fight at their natural weights. According to fighters, fighting at your natural weight gives increased stamina if the fight goes the distance. That is a big if, when your opponent may finish you with heavy strikes before his gas tank runs out.
Heavy Weights
The only weight class which seems somewhat immune to the UFC weight game is the HW class, and this is due to the huge disparity between the minimum weight of 206 and the maximum weight of 265. Those fighters who weigh only 220 - 230 are encouraged to cut weight to LHW, since fighting someone who cut to 265 (and therefore had a fight night weight of 285) immediately gives your opponent a giant advantage. When Randy Couture weighed 225 lbs and fought Brock Lesnar who weighed 280-285 of muscle, Lesnar had a massive edge over the smaller Couture. But Caine Velasquez defeated the heavier Lesnar, which proved the point that winning a fight was more than just muscle mass.
How Much of an Advantage is Due to Weight?
This is hard, if not impossible, to quantify. It seems fair to say that a similarly muscled heavier opponent will have some advantage. This is the very reason for the existence of weight classes. The problem is how much advantage should one ascribe to greater muscle mass? The reason this is so hard to quantify is due to other factors, like technical skill, strength (which does not always correlate to muscle appearance), speed, endurance, natural athleticism and many other reasons.
The Fighters Believe Mass Matters
Whatever the answer to this question is, there is no doubt the fighters believe that mass matters as evidenced by their ritual of losing weight( mostly water weight) prior to fights--then regaining that weight in a day. So remember when you are watching a LW fight that it is really a MW fight, and a WW fight is really a LHW fight, and a MW fight is a HW fight....
Comments
BTW The little guy in the picture above was fighting at his natural weight.
lol and being a fat **** is no advantage against an mma fighter
Curious why this is title "UFC weight game" this happens in all of MMA, why single out the UFC like the UFC is doing something dirty and no one else is?
I mentioned in the article that this 'weight game' was inherited from Boxing and Wrestling.
I called it the UFC weight game because they also have chosen to implement it.
I am not saying this 'Weight Game' is doing something dirty, but only deceptive to many fans, and to illustrate the pressure on fighters to play the game.
I can see AS being LHW but he would be a miniscule HW by breadth and depth. Height is his real advantage in his weight class not frame. You said recently that Silva is walking 230-240lbs, just wondering where you have alink stating or showing this? Why doers hid weight keep going up in your estimation? A true heavyweight cannot drop to 168 losing 72 lbs and be back at 230-240 in one night nor can someone drop from 240-185 and expect to keep up in the 4th and fifth rounds of a fight which he does. AS walks between 195 and 205 recently and has only once been recorded at 220 while he was soft looking even when he fought Forrest he looked soft and was also smaller than Forrest. Exaggeration is seen alot when it comes to AS since he has the coveted spot of P4P fighter. I agree with your article on the way there is a weight game but their is a distinct exaggeration when AS is involved.
Anderson Silva said at the Irvin vs Silva post fight conference that he walks around at 220. But in a pre-fight interview he was quoted:
"Silva, who said his normal walking-around weight is between 220 and 230 pounds, first learned of the possibility of moving up to fight Irvin while he was on vacation last month in Hawaii."
Direct Silva quote:
Cote fight:
“I apologize,” Silva said. “I worked hard in training to go four or five rounds. I dropped from 230 pounds to 205 and then to 185. I worked my butt off. I had a long camp preparing for the fight. I owe you guys in the media, the fans and everyone an apology. I was prepared, but it’s unfortunate what happened.”
Ed Soares about GSP fight:
...I think Anderson is just too big for him.
"I think that you can't make Anderson any smaller...I mean what are you going to do make a catchweight. But what is a catch weight 180...fine ...(On dropping to 170)...Anderson right now is walking around 225lbs...do you see how big he is...he is 225lb...to drop down to 170 is 55 lbs (laughs)."
So when say there is exaggeration, Silva himself has claimed at least 230 lbs., and I would speculate it is often more than that when he is not in training camp.
I decided to look into the quotes and AS has said more than once that he is 215-220 when he is not fighting. After people have been insulted by his performance like the Cote fight and such then Anderson stated he came from 230 and that they trained hard to get to 185. He seemed to be exxagerating the circumstance to show his commitment when the fans were feeling it wasn't being taken seriously. AS fought Leites weighing in at 182 and then 2 weeks later was recorded at 192. look at the weigh ins of AS vs Forrest. You cant see a single abdominal muscle on AS and Forrest has 8 defined ones. GSP has said he walks around 195 and tips 200 sometimes and even then GSP has more toneing than almost anyone else in the UFC. AS has been at 168 and GSP has never been that light. When AS has no fight in place or set up he doesn't train he goes home to his family and GSP never stops training for any reason and still manages to get to 200 sometimes. I know for a fact that GSP is smaller than AS but I would say if he stopped training like AS does he would be like 210 since there are guys in his division that walk at 220-230 much like AS does. I say there is a maximum of 15 lbs difference with all thing equal. GSP has areach only 1.5 inches shorter than AS and is as tall as most of the MW division. 230-240 is an exaggeration of AS as people tend to do when they dislike him to take away from his p4p status. GSP is not a shrew and AS is not a Rhino. All that being said the advantage of size is most definetly on Silvas side.
Much of what you say might be true, but the bottom line is that we either trust what Silva or Soares say about his natural weight, or not. There are reasons for fighters to lie about having a lighter walk around weight too.
My point is that while saying 230 - 240 might be at the top range of speculation about Anderson Silva's weight (and I am sure it varies from time to time, like most of us) it is not a ridiculous exaggeration--it is pretty close to ballpark.
I only used Anderson Silva as an example, but many fighters also cut drastic amounts of weight. Both Rashad and Rampage get really big in between fights--and not all muscle.
Brian Stann fought at LHW and but moved down to MW--in his last MW fight he said he was 205 on fight night.
So everyone does it--it is just a question of degree.
I sharped ya.
Very interesting post, first time i ever see someone discuss this on lowkick.
Your point makes completly sense, and i agree with it.
imagine fighters finally fighting at their natural weight classes
it would be way more interesting to see them at their full capacity.
the ideal thing would be to make the weight ins hours before the fight
leaving the fighters no choice of cutting weight.
But sad enough this will never happen. because ever since weight classes were added to the UFC fighters start to use the cut weight as advantage. that's the reason fighters like Tito and Hughes got to be so dominant , the size advantage.
So this system they have made has been for a very long time , and change it would be very hard. it would mean starting all divisions from 0 all over again. leaving all weight classes with vacant titles with the exception of the Heavyweights and fighters like Carwin and Lesnar would be left out of the MMA world.
I thought I would write this article after speaking to some friends who believed a WW fight was a WW fight--not a LHW fight.
I am not really beating the drum to change the current system, since I agree with you, it is firmly entrenched.
My only concern is with the fighters who are feel they are forced to cut more and more weight to be competitive.
By now, when I hear it is a MW bout, I automatically move the actual weight class up by one or two.
I understand your logic and it is sound except that all fighters have the same opportunity and if they can't cut the weight it is really their inability factor that is their weakness and they will have to find other strengths like Edgar has to be champ. AS is a natural fighter where as others like John Fitch have to get around that by work ethic and determination or else they have an ability problem that keeps them outdone by guys who are able. To me it is perfectly fair the way it is wilst i agree they are oversized in almost every division.
Yeah, but you know how it goes when fighters will do anything to win the cheese. The envelope for weight cutting will continue to get stretched. And every fighter will have to do it to keep up with the competition.
I agree thats just part of keeping up though. One way or another it will or won't work the way a fighter would like in some aspects that either hinder or bring promise to him. I don't have a problem with weight cutting as long as you can that is your strength and anothers weakness. If you fight better at your natural weight than that is your strength and anothers weakness. If you fight great no matter what(AS) then you are a bit special.
getting the fighters back into their Real weightclasses
would be easy as pie.
Simply do the weigh-ins either the same day
or 24 hours before the actual fight
those guys doing drastic cuts would either not make wieght
or be gassed during the fight
so by simple elimination they would soon be back fighting where they should be
or at least in the next class under thier natural wieght.
Zip-zing-zang!
no more heavies as middles or lightheavies
no lightheavies as welters etc.
No need to vacate titles,
just let nature take its' course
the fighters would either be able to make the weight and perform
or bump up a class (or two in some cases)
ummm "simply do the weigh-ins either the same day or 24 hours before the actual fight" IDK how long you've been watching MMA But the do the weighins around 24 hours prior to the fights now. usually like 27 hours b4. good call though lol. this topic doesn't bother me that much it's been this way for a while and even though it's getting worse they're still all capable of competing. skill will always prevail. Frankie Edgar fights around his weight. GSP fights above but is nowhere near the biggest WW, Valasquez just beat Brock. Anderson Silva is a big MW but I don't think his size has alot to do with it. people are saying he's so big and this and that but he doesn't use much size. just speed and precision. and before Jones was LHW champ both Machida and Shogun were not big LHW's and Jones who's size might have give a little edge since he does alot of work on the ground. but again his main attributes for success are speed, reach, creativity, and great work ethic.
Wasn't Chael Sonnen way bigger than Anderson Silva when they fought? I think he even mentioned it himself.
They normally due weigh-in 24 hours prior to the fight, depending on the state, Gomi vs Florian had a double weigh in including one on the day of the fight, and they still cut the same amount of weight. Moving the weighins closer to the actual fight will more than likely lead to health concerns, as fighters will still try to push the limit with dehydrating, and rehydrating themselves
"when Brendon Schaub was asked about his point deduction, he claimed he did not care since this was a HW bout and would not go the distance. "
Excuse me schaub? **** you too man. That still doesn't give you the right to foul you **** >:O
the disparity that occurs due to cutting weight is simply solved by having the weigh ins at ringside directly before the fight. I don't know to this day why they don't do this. Firstly, cutting carries health risks and having everyone on weight fight night removes this risk. Also, it would even up the playing field for those that cut and those that don't.
i cannot see the arguement for not having the weigh ins the same time as they fight to remove the problems associated with weight cutting though i doubt to see it anytime soon same as i doubt to see the judging criteria overhauled and some sanity applied anytime soon.
I think thats a fair assessment. Although if you have it ringside it may be that a guy who is fighting at 170 who normally walks at 175 and came in at 173 fight night could have the fight disqualified for not making weight since he doesn't have a couple of hours to make weight. A lot of fights would be canceled due to them not being able to scratch off a couple of pounds in time and it would leave the fans withouit the said fight who already are sitting in their seats waiting for it.
I know some might say they should just have penelaty deductions for fighters that are not at weight but it puts a lot of pressure on a fighter to either hold or take a sh*t, eat or starve just to make sure he is on weight at the very moment of fighting. 24 hours is reasonable IMO since then if I was to come in with an extra 2 pounds because I didn't sh*t and ate a 12 inch sub for dinner.
This was another topic I wanted to bring into discussion. Fantastic job.
Let's be honest, 70% to maybe even 90% of fighters do the weight shedding in order to gain a strength or size advantage, if one is available. I, for one, was never a fan of it. I'm a natural 190 pounder, but when I was competiting in Judo or Kyokushin events, my sensei would always tell me to drop about 20-30 lbs.
Sometimes I did, and sometimes I didn't. And let me tell you, when I didn't shed the weight, the guys I faced had the size and power of heavyweights.
Thanks doom.
I often feel like I am in the minority when I think it is odd that LHW's fight at WW, but they still call it a WW match.
I don't blame the fighters for seeking every loophole they can to get an edge. But as in all loopholes, if everyone does it, it is no longer a loophole.