Randy Couture: Some judges don't understand the scoring criterias in MMA
Posted on November 30, 2010, 05:28 AM by Anton GurevichUFC Hall of Famer and one of the most decorated Mixed Martial Artists of all time, Randy "The Natural" Couture, voiced his opinion in regards of the current situation with Judging in MMA. Forty-seven years old Couture stated some of the judges don't entirely understand how to score MMA fight, giving the recent fight between Lyoto Machida and Quinton "Rampage" Jackson as an example.
Meanwhile, Herb Dean opened a school for MMA Referees and Judges. The school is recognized by the Association of Boxing Commissions, and recently graduated its first class. Here's what Herb Dean had to say about his idea (Yahoo! CageWriter via BloodyElbow.com):
"The sport is growing and there are so many fight cards being held all over the place and there is always a need for additional good officials. There's no such thing as too many good officials and even the officials who are currently working need to consistently work to make sure they're up to date with the techniques that are being used."
Comments
Who landed more damage over the entire fight? Machida. Check out fightmetric if you don't agree. randy makes a valid point that coming forward is not the only thing they should be scoring.
It's also based on OCTAGON CONTROL and AGRESSION. That was ALL Rampage
yes, they also thought : "hey look, a mean looking guy swinging at air. We MUST score that"
Or they thought Hey this guy is pushing the pace let's give it points
exactly Jizzle... Rampage had control and aggression and Machida didnt land too many more strikes on Rampage, lots of the strikes were feelers. But the problem with fightmetric is that you get to contemplate further about who won. Everyone who had just saw the match thought it was close. Rampage got the victory and no arguments there. I cant just look up fightmetric and watch the fight 4 more times and then blame judges since they only see it once..... All this rewatch the tape is total bull
I think rampage won the fight. Just barely and its wasnt pretty or fun to watch. I can understand rampage feeling like he lost because its only really a win to him when he dominates an opponent. Hes just not use to winning decisions (3 of 39 fights in his career have been decision). Machida did do some damage. But its round scored and the first 2 rounds were controlled by rampage and the strikes were pretty even. the only round you can clearly saw was machidas was the third.
Bad fight but i think it was scored properly.
Machida would more than likely won the fight if the judges were scoring the entire fight as 1 round. However, under the 10 point must system Rampage probably did deserve to win the fight.
Even so, the scoring system is ridiculously unsuitable for 3 round MMA fights. The guys who first decided to use it were either really lazy or totally unfamiliar with the sport.
According to fight metric, Machida landed more significant strikes. However, a lot of those significant strikes were leg kicks, while almost all of Rampage's strikes were head shots.
It also must be said that Rampage is far more powerful than Machida- watch the armbar attempt- you have to be way stronger than your opponent to get out like that. Because of this, a "significant strike" from Rampage is considerably more significant than a "significant strike" from Machida.
My final point is that MMA statistics are far from an exact science. Compustrike, which takes total strikes landed into account rather than trying to decide between "significant and insignificant" (which is subjective as hell) shows that Rampage outlanded Machida 59 to 38 overall.
Full disclosure - I'm a huge Rampage fan.
penn vs edgar 1, bj landed more strikes according to fightmetrics and he still lost........ go figure...
you guys gotta stop looking at "Computer" statistics. I personally dont think thats a way to justify who won or not. The is more to scoring a fight than who landed the most shots, ya its part of it, but not all of it.
I dunno, judging in any sport is kinda sketch, so as a fighter, I'd go for the finish before the judge's score cards. Unfortunately, Machida's style didnt allow him to do that on the night of the fight and he paid for it. I think Machida needs to get more aggressive. Just a little, and he'll be ok
Machida won. It's not Thai boxing it's mma which could be a complex and interesting sport. The more Dana white has power the worse the sport will be. He had his place he brought it this far bur he needs to go or we are going to have wwe or don king fiascos. It's not tough man, it's not Thai boxing, it's not wrestling, it's mma. You need to be a highly trained professional to do it. If Dana stays the king the sport won't evolve. It will get " bigger" but that's not necessarily a good thing. Machida won. Agression is not a judging point and octagon control is
3) “Octagon Control”: Dictating the pace, location and position of the contest using the following maneuvers:
a) Countering a grappler’s attempt at takedown to remain standing and legally striking effectively;
b) Taking down an opponent to force a ground fight;
c) Creating threatening submission attempts pass the guard to achieve mount, while on the ground;
d) Creating striking opportunities, while on the ground.
As much as you hate to admit it, its because of guys like Dana that the sport has evolved to what it is now. Dana has no control over the judging and refereeing, so I hope you're not trying to imply its because of him the decision went the way it went.
Stiks is right its sad some of you guys would "weak" his comment. It shows just how ignorant some mma fans are.
like I said he got it this far. If it's going to become a "sport" he needs to go. His business model is like the wwe which was great until now. The sport can do plenty on it's own now. It's ego maniacs like Dana white
Who end up leveling it off. It will never get huge like football until he stops making cheesy sit and campy propaganda. And yes he and Vegas bookies can easily persuade judges in a system like there is. Do I think Dana got the sport where it is.... Hell yes! I am grateful. Just want him to give up the sleazy Vegas style he has and let guys like couture and Matt Hughes, nogeira, renzo, (old legends) direct the rules and judging, and let a professional marketer take over. Like NBA NFL. They are still campy but no where near the sleaze Dan brings. You can only go so far with that type of approach. Treat it like a real sport because it is. But I'd you don't see it's at a turning point you are blind. So is Dana. So it's time for him to let the next guy be the mouth piece.
I don't disagree that some change needs to happen. In my opinion Dana needs to be more open to cooperating with other organizations, but he is still just a business man trying to make money. My only point in my comment was that people seem to point every finger at Dana. He doesn't control judging,refereeing, or drug testing. I THINK that part of becoming legal in so many states included regulation by third party organizations, but don't quote me on that.
HA listen to the legend! rampage lost the fight clearly! rampage didnt land a shit in that fight while machida was landing the most. i cant belive rampage won that fight if being agressive and not landing punches helps you to win a fight then i can go in to the cage and shadow boxing and get a win in the ufc. Ok now lets weak me!
lol i wasnt expecting anything else from you
lol Same here i knew you would respond to me sooner or later.
im not gonna get into a debate with you dont worry, it brings a new meaning to 'flogging a dead horse'
that is the last thing that worries me you and me dabating. cuz its always ending up me winning :P lol i was kidding.
yeah agree to disagree i suppose haha
btw on another note who dyou think wil win between forrest nd franklin?...i know ur a forrest fan but franklins a tough fella
I love both of them! i give the stand up to franklin cuz i think franklin is much faster + forrest seems to have problem with southpaw fighters. forrest is pretty slow :P but the ground i give it to forrest i think forrest is stronger and have better ground game. But to be honest i dont really know. i see it 2 ways if franklin can keep this fight standing its either gonna be Ko/tko or a decision win for franklin. But if forrest is smart he will turn this fight in to a grappling match that speed and southpaw wont be an issue and finnish the fight on the ground via submission! Thats what i think ;)
i reckon ur rit about the standup, franklin would shade it, but griffins got an amazin chin so it would be a decision if it stayed there...i honestly dont know a lot about forrests ground game apart from the shogun fight obviously and he got a black belt recently...i think ill be supportin franklin, i like griffin but i met rich at the expo and he was a pretty cool guy, should be a good fight
Really? thats cool! but no matter who wins ill be happy lol
Good for Herb Dean... I know Big John McCarthy has a similar program as well. These schools aren't going to fix the issue over night, but they are definitely a step in the right direction.
Herb Dean is easily the best ref in the sport, him and big john
Josh Rosenthal
I agree with both of you. Herb Dean, Big John, and Josh Rosenthal should just alternate every bout in the country lol
i thnk they should judge the fight as a whole because it could get rid of the people who are considerd "Round Winners".
Either that, or get close rounds 10-9 and dominating rounds 10-8 or 10-7 so the overall score is a closeer reflection of the overall fight.
10 8 rounds really fck sht up in a 3 round fight system
having a very very close round and a one sided dominant round with lots of strikes both scored 10-9 really fck sht up in a 3 round fight system. We have seen it plenty of times. round by round scoring has to reflect the fight overall. In it's present system it doesn't come close.
should be ranked on damage and control weighted equally. if you have a top position but are the one taking all the damage, it should neutralize the whole takedown thing. if you have a top position but the bottom guy has a guillotine or hes getting dangerously close to an armlock, it should neutralize the take down. jusges have to take bjj into account, not just top position. the whole moving forward thing is nonsense. its not like machida was running, if rampage was coming forward it means theyre both engaged.
Totally agree mcgee. Kampmann done more damage on his back than shields done on top as well as landing dozens more strikes overall in the fight but lost. The present system favours hugging over fighting.
It's Couture who needs to now how to judge fights
the aggression bit is just an incentive because there's nothing worse than counterpuncher vs counterpuncher where the one who wins is the one who can wait long enough for the other guy to get impatient. Counterpunching shouldn't even be a 'style', it's just one aspect of striking to be used when the oppurtunity presents itself, making a gameplan out of it is selfish
thats why dana get sum thing done with the old gay judges! get the ufc its own! fight for ur fighters and the fans!
The UFC definately doesnt need its own judges, i can see how much of a controversy and fiasco that wouldnt end up being.... But the current judges could really use a lesson/class/first hand experience in how and what kind of criteria the fight should be scored on.
The current system is a complete joke. Having their own would give them some control. they could drop bad judges. they could allow fighters to appeal decisions. At present fighters careers and money earning potential get shit on by idiots.
When you have a performance like Machida did, IMO you have no right to complain or cry about the decision (which he didn't). It's different if your constantly doing damage and putting in work (besides moving away or stalking your oppenent) and then the decision doesn't go your way when it clearly shoudl. But if your style or gameplan is a slowpaced, boring fight where you win rounds by inches, dont cry when you lose.
Rampage won first two rounds end of story.Randy shuld talk about Vera fight were Vera was robbed
Haha you can tell who the Machida haters and Rampage fans are. Rampage didnt win that fight, even he admitted that Machida should have won that fight and he whooped his ass. The judges must have been watching SportsCenter or the ring girls because Machida easily won that fight and I've watched it 6 times on my DVR in clear HD. But I also agree with mokoko, Vera was robbed when he fought Couture