Quick Quote: Nate "The Great" Marquardt says Dan Hardy should learn Wrestling, instead of criticizing it

Wrestling is a huge part of MMA. If what Hardy said is true then he needs to get over it and get in the gym and wrestle, because the wrestling aspect of MMA is not going away anytime soon. If anything it is getting more and more prominent, as you see in so many fights nowadays. Hardy is prominently a striker, and it must be frustrating for fighters that like to strike when they come up against a dominant wrestler, but that's why they call it Mixed Martial Arts.

just so you know the last time i saw Dan Hardy talk about lay n pray was at a fan expose months ago and he was referring to the Daley Kos fight which was a boring fight the video is actually on lowkick, also he was asked about what he's doing to deal with it Dan Hardy actually said he's been training with some division 1 wrestler's to improve. . the thing that annoys me about this argument is that there is no right or wrong

are wrestler's that don't GnP or pass guard boring ? yes

should guys like Hardy work on their ground game to handle it ? yes

and the funny thing is Maynard is a fighter i had no prob with what he did Ken Flo but on the other hand I was annoyed with what Koscheck did to Daley

I understand your view. It's all about perspective. The one thing here that often gets opinions skewed is the fact that there is "boring" from a fan's perspective, and the reality of actually fighting in a cage. Any fighter being honest will tell you that from their perspective when they are being man-handled by a great wrestler that it is anything but "boring", and any great wrestler will tell you the same, it is a lot of hard work and strategy. Is it more exciting to see more stand up and knockouts? Well, hell yes, in most cases. It is easy for a stand up fighter to criticize wrestling if they just lost to a superior wrestler, because it is frustrating as hell, whether it's a Daly or Hardy, or anyone else. Any fan that has not had this experience cannot truly understand. The bottom line is no one style is completely dominant in MMA, but it is up to the individual fighter to make sure he has as many tools available to him when he steps into the cage, and if he doesn't, then that's the chance he takes.

@CageRage



Lately it has seemed like it doesn't take so many of those tools to get a win in the cage. Some people are just dominating with just wrestling. People are hating that control win. I think a lot of us have gotten spoiled. Back when MMA first started, it was discipline vs discipline. Then people started to get more well rounded and we saw better fights. Now with the wrestling takeover its like the well rounded fighter is at a loss because its so hard to deal with dominant wrestling.

@japan

when i first started watching the UFC on the regular i used to see kimoras from wrestlers all the time and guard passes, but at the same time the guy on the bottom has a responsibility to do more than just hold.i was listening to sherdog the other day an there was a guy on there saying wrestling is killing mma. he said they reminded him of C grade students just doing enough to pass i.e win fughts instead of getting A's i.e learning subs,passing guard, finishing fights

@mmauk



I agree that you should do more on the bottom but look at the Silva fight. Silva is good at subs but he really didn't catch Sonnen til the very end. If Sonnen played it safe for 2 more minutes, he would have won. I think Silva kills Sonnen in every aspect of fighting except wrestling. Some people said Sonnen had better stand up but let's not kid ourselves. Wrestling is starting to dominate. Everyone can see it. I hate the control win from top position and I agree that people should learn to do more from the bottom instead of hold and practically beg the ref to stand it up.

all round is the best! when wrestlers wins it isnt only their wrestling that saves them it includes bjj defence and g 'n' p + boxing/muay thai to set up the take downs!

For a supposedly tough guy and supposedly tough fighter, it's a pretty pussy thing to complain about something, simply because "you're" no good at it; that explains Dan Hardy, here.



If he doesn't get it together, he'll go nowhere in MMA. He'll certainly go nowhere in the UFC.



If you can't fight on the ground, prevent it from getting there or get up, when it does get there- then you have no place in the UFC; period.



Now come on Dan - let's see that famous British resolve.



...we will never surrender and all that, crap.

Whats your resolve?

@ Urine (AKA Piss)



My resolve? To continue to dominate you; flaccid one.



Concluding - Thank you for continuing to follow my work. I encourage you to continue doing so, as I believe it benefits you; even if only on a subconscious level.



Cheers,



Wing Chun



Pisse - vous êtes si faciles au punk et trompez de. :-)

What country are you from WingChump? You skipped that I'll say intentionally in your profile.

@ Urine (AKA PIss)



What country am I from? LOL!!!!!



Look @ you...all concerned about where I'm from. What's with the concern, Piss? What difference would it make to you, in the barn whilst trying to copulate with the farm animals; with the male animals you probably "catch", right Urine.



Listen - I am flattered to death that you think so highly of me, as to follow me around on this site, visiting my profile page, posting on any comment I make (long or short, serious or funny)...I take it all as compliment - thank you.



However and with that said - you are of such low class, breeding and ilk, that your patronage and admiration of me, is valueless to me. I certainly couldn't brag about it on LowKick....hey everyone...look at me...Urine Hype reads everything I post.



Who would be impressed with that?



Concluding - as I cannot prevent you from following me or cast you off

in the same manner in which a man or woman might dispose of a used condom or Tampax, I shall continue to encourage you to read my posts, comment as you see fit (big free speech advocate, here) and I will continue to trash you publicly, on this forum; reactively, not proactively.



Cheers,



Wing Chun



PS - Urine, would you prefer my trashing of you to be in French?

Just fight him or stop whining.

wow, this guy thinks he's really clever. talking about farm animals and stuff. you are seriously no mma expert, and the funniest thing is, yeah, a lot of us on here are from the U.S. and not many of us are very patriotic people. but we don't go around destroying other people for being from other countries. so it always makes me laugh when a non american thinks he's saying all this clever stuff and it is really a lot of unfunny, not clever, retarded, childish sounding insults. "You catch pee from farm animals." bahahahahaha. you made my day WingChun. I've heard 3 year olds talk better smack than that. You should be honored that anyone here would even read your posts. keep entertaining me though. i'm sure you have a lot more where that came from. bahahahaha

@ Hit2Hurt (AKA 2Stupid2Understand)



Are you ever late to the party, man. You have no idea what this is about or why I trashed Urine. If you are going to way in, proactively and give us all you worthless opinion, then perhaps you should go back through this thread and others, to understand (fully) why it is that I have posted, that which I have.



For the record - I do not profess to be an MMA "expert". Do you profess to be an MMA "expert". I post nothing more then my opinions and quips. What do you post?



As to my nation of origin - Jose Aldo, George St. Pierre, Shogun Rua and Anderson Silva...are not from America; so what would be your point, here. Do you have a map on your wall or something? One where you track MMA fans, by nation. Do you really have that much time on your hands, 2Stupid2Understand?



"You catch pee from farm animals." - this is an excellent demonstration of your stupidity, here.



First, you put it in quotes, it's not a quote. Secondly, Urine is his nickname (he's full of piss), it's not the actual act of urinating. Do you get that? Finally, "catch" ...as in catch or pitch, sexually...hence the use of the term "copulate". Do you get that? Or are you so think, that you will need further explanation?



Listen - do yourself a favor and stop drawing attention to yourself; you only serve to demonstrate your lack of understand and analytical skills.



As an exercise, I suggest - when you read something, read it one sentence at a time and then think about it, before you move on; make notes to yourself, if you need to. Soon, you will find that you can read two or even three sentences at a time, before you need to take a break and think about what you've ( just) read. I bet (even) within the year, you'll be wading through entire paragraphs an no longer needing to take notes.



...just a suggestion; not trying to be pushy, here.



Concluding - I thank you for having taken the time to read my post(s). I encourage you to continue doing so, as I believe they are helping you.



Cheers,



Wing Chun

Who cares if you think my opinion is worthless. And while i didn't read more than a couple sentences of your dumb long post. Yes, i am an expert at analyzing fights, and a general expert in MMA, and an expert at immediately recognizing what a fool you sound like when you are trying to talk trash. You think cuz you wrote ten pages talkin shit to me that you won this little argument. No one cares how much time you put into trying to make me look bad. You didn't succeed. And I've gotten more respect from the top analysts on this site than you will ever get. You are a fool, and it's hilarious that you even try to challenge my MMA knowledge. I also train in the sport. And no, I'm not a professional fighter. And I don't talk a lot of smack. But it took zero effort to destroy you and make you look like the total fool you are in front of anyone who reads these posts. Don't worry, you seem to think i should have taken notes on your comment before I posted. But there's nothing you could ever write that would be too deep for me to understand. You're probly just another 14 year old kid that thinks he's the man for using a lot of words on here, instead of just saying your point in a short as possible efficient manner. I don't care how you explain your sex jokes. They are still not funny at all. And still look totally retarded to anyone that reads them. And calling him piss is not clever at all. You seem to be real proud of yourself since you say it a lot. You're a joke bro. You could never touch my level of intelligence, though i don't get on here to use my whole vocabulary and try to sound smart. The things I say can be smart even if they are short and sweet. And that my friend, is your first lesson in analyzing fights.

Here's the low down on the great wrestling debate floating around in MMA.



Most fighters that are criticizing it, are doing so because they lack the talent to use it. Wrestling is a skill that is mastered over MANY years. You can not expect after months, 1 year, even 2 years of training to have mastered it. This frustrates the hell out of many fighters. In particular, fighters outside the US and Russia.



For many of us here in the US, wrestling is offered while we are in elementary school. and continues through out college. Until the popularity of MMA, the Olympics and coaching were the only options to continue.



Are there those wrestlers that try to eek out a win with so called "lay-n-pray"? You bet but fault the ref for allowing that to happen. When a fighter does nothing but lay on top of an opponent without working and trying to advance his position, the fight should be brought standing....BLAME THE REF!!!



It's my opinion that wrestling is the most superior form of combat in MMA. Wrestlers have the ability to take down a man who is a master of stand up as well as neutralize a master of BJJ. Wrestling drains every ounce of energy from an opponent, especially those not well trained in it.



Go back and re-watch the Silva vs Sonnen fight. In this fight you have a guy in Silva thought to be the best stand up fighter in the game. His BJJ is thought to be among the best as well. Look at Silva's eyes and expressions through out that fight. The guy had the look of "oh fuk, what have I got myself into". He was physically drained and lacked any defense to stop the mauling he was getting. This is the case for ALL fighters lacking a wrestling back ground.



Joe Rogan once described how a casual fan looks at a fight as opposed to someone trained in the art itself. A casual fan will look at a fight on the ground and think, " damn, this sh*t is as boring as hell' but to someone who understands MMA, they see two professional fighters in a chess match trying to physically outwit one another.



Anyone new to wrestling that feel the need to rag on it, should try, just once, wrestling anyone for 2 minutes and see how you feel. I guarantee your lungs will feel like they are ready to explode and every muscle in your body will feel like spaghetti. Those are the things the camera can't /wont show you.



Stop the crying and become a better fighter!!!

Has nothing to do with the ref at all, and ofcourse alot of people are complaining about this, it's become the path of least resistance to a win. I'm not even a guy that wants a finish everytime, but watching one guy lay on another and do basically no damage is such a BS way to win.



Most guys just learned how to exploit the game now an do just barely enough to keep it on the ground, it's no longer a fight. Rewatch silva vs sonnen? Yea man guys with rib injuries do great against wrestlers don't they? what's your point?

@ capjo



Excellent post, man. Very well argued. I give it ten take-downs, out of ten take-downs.

Also, to answer your question wingchun, i haven't posted as much lately since i've been really busy. And since you don't know me, your conclusion that I'm stupid because I made fun of your weak as hell insults, is laughable. I give you props for one thing only, and that is that you have learned english pretty well since it's not you first language. Aside from that, you get no more, it does crack me up that every guy you want to make fun of, you come up with a terribly not clever nickname, Urine, and 2Stupid2Understand. Those must have really taken you a while to come up with. How bout WEAKCHIN. That's gonna be your new nickname bro. It's not great but it's way better than the garbage you try to pass off as an insult. Giving me advice on how to read isn't gonna show anyone you're smarter than me, nor is writing 3 pages of explaining why you're smarter than me. If people think that, it will be from seeing what you write, and what I write. It has been fun though, I must admit, destroying your weakchin insults and attempts to sound like you know what you're talking about. Half the reason I get on this site is to get in arguments with fools like you and expose you for the weakness you spout off your keyboard. Trying to pick on UrHype, especially when he's been so cool to you. hahaha. You're lucky as hell anyone would follow anything you say or give it any recognition. Especially UrHype. I had a small argument with him months ago but I forget what it was about. Either way, stop acting so stuck up, or like anyone here is privileged to read your thoughts. You're privileged to have a place to write them. So have a little respect and stop acting like you're the only tool in the world that has a decent vocabulary.

Not that complicated- it's very basic actually and it's not just fighters who get beat by wrestlers complaining. Most fans (that I know at least) hate, HATE a fight that is LnP and ends up with a decision-by-dry hump.



Listen, I'm torn. I think Hardy and Daley are fricking cry-baby whiners who need to STFU. Then again, I actually agree with their main point as a fan and someone who loves martial arts. Most disciplines teach you how to finish a guy. Wrestling teaches you how to get points. If you lay on a guy and throw punches that are meant to "look busy" and you don't finish, you are BORING and bad for the sport, period.

Have to point out that Silva did not get mauled by Chael. If that was the case, the fight would have been stopped. Chael did stay busy though but basically did 1 and a half rounds of damage and around 3 rounds of annoyance. Just an opinion here.

Nate needs to worry about Palhares.

i like nate.............. too bad he's gonna get heelhooked on wednesday night :(

I won't be surprised if Nate loses his fight on Wednesday

Wrestling is a very good base for MMA, as a good wrestler you can dictate where the fight takes place.



If he is a better striker than you, then you take hom down and if he bjj is better than yours then you can stuff his takedowns.



If you are a striker, then you definetely have to add wrestling to your skillset, if only to be able to control where the fight takes place.



Chuck Lidell, he comes from a wrestling background, but he uses it to stop to takedowns just because he's very good at striking.

GSP a karate guy who's got phenomenal wrestling, better than many highly decorated wrestlers.



Of course well rounded is the best, but at least you have to have good defense of everyhing, takedown, submissions and striking.

And then you have to certain strengths, or be very good at everything but master at none OR a bjj master or muay master or something like it.



Don't whine about it, learn it and change your camp or get new trainers and sparring partners so that you can get knowlwdge you need to succeed in this sport otherwise you will NEVER be a champion.

well said, but at the same it is annoying watching guys not do much GnP or even pass guard and its usually wrestlers that do that at UFC 118 i really enjoyed watching Maia use his BJJ. then on the other side of things Maynard took down Ken Flo each round and only passed guard 1 time with barely any GnP, although i wasn't complaining too much coz i wanted him to win just coz he's exciting doesn't mean his wins should count for nothing

i obviously meant maynard isn't exciting

@ mmauk



Brother - I would have thought you would have used the Koscheck / Dailey fight, as a better example of BS lan 'n pray. I was really looking forward to seeing JK and Dailey go at it on their feet, but JK ran away to the ground and did "0" in the way of damage, while there.



PD and fighters like him - obviously need to learn how to stay up and get up (@ minimum), but I blame the ref in that fight for allowing the time to snooze off the clock, while JK laid on top of him and dreamt of GSP & TUF 12. They should have been stood up; multiple times. In that fight, I don't know if PD was robbed of an opportunity or JK handed one - either way, it was a shitty and boring fight. No bangers and mash, on that one.

there's a reason i didn't remember that fight the most interesting thing happened after the bell

@ mmauk



...good one.

@WingChun



Haha! The bad thing is if the wrestler is very good, there is nothing you can do unless you yourself is a better wrestler. That to me is not MMA. Does anyone remember Sherk vs Franca. At the beginning of every round, Sherk would shoot on him and Franca would knee the crap out of him. Sherk pushed through each one and got the takedown everytime. Sometimes you can't do anything to save yourself except go train in wrestling I suppose.

Yes, thats true but at the same time, itsn NOT impossible.



As i said GSP is from a Karate background yet He has learnt wrestling good enough to dominate most wrestlers in the UFC so it can be done.



And now we aren't talking about even learning everything about wrestling there is, but to be a Sprawl & Brawl figther, that for instance PD wants to be.... Then you absolutely have learn how to wrestle very good and focus on the Takedown Defense aspect of it. Otherwise you are truly fu###d in this game today.



But i also think that if the guy that is on top doesn't try to advance his position at all, then they should be stood up again.

There is a truth to that too, but for instance if the do try advance or ground £s; then its ok. But the fine line there is, when is it ok to stand them up?! How much should they g&p, or if they do it but aren't that effective should they be stood up again.

Exactly where is the line then ,because it will wary with different referees too??

I agree with that. Every ref will stand the fight at different times but right now it seems like no one is standing it up at all. And I think GSP learned wrestling so fast because he is a superior athlete. It has helped him in every aspect of MMA.

It's actually more about fighting for points rather than wrestling

Yeah I'm not sure many people actually read Hardy's quote referring to the Lentz fight.

Fighters shouldn't whine about wrestling, but I understand how frustrating it must be if the guy just holds you down and doesn't advance his position, u have no chance at countering. Plus wrestlers have an automatic advantage with the cage. That's why I wish PRIDE was still around!

Come on guys everyone knows that winner fight was horrid. I fell asleep for sure. Hanging ona leg is one thing and trying to use wrestling to improve positions is another. I would rather watch hardy stand up over most wrestlers anyday........

What this guy said.



I think a few of you are jumping the gun a bit, he wasn't slagging off wrestling by any means. He was mentioning the andre/lenz fight which was horrible.



Pride rules should be brought in

you know if hardy doesnt like getting taken down maybe he should train harder on hes take down defense nad stop complaining.....hes just mad that gsp kicked his ass

Like most things a happy medium would be best. No wrestling would be weak. A fight with too much wrestling (lay and pray) is boring. Using wrestling as a base to support other skills makes for an entertaining fight.

Nate is a great guy, and he's 100% right. Hardy can cry all he wants, the losses are still losses, Georges was the better fighter. He's arguing on behalf of MMA fighters leaving massive holes in their game, it's "stupid-talk" -Joe Rogan

And Nate has the credibility because he lost to a dominant wrestler in the Sonnen fight.

I agree with Nate to a large extent and I'm not sure if Dan means all wrestling based MMA fighters or just the ones that try and sway the judges with a couple of take-downs and doing just about enough not to get stood up, because wrestlers like GSP and Chael Sonnen should not be criticised they try to finish the fight by GnP or Sub. A lot of you defend these so called lay n pray fighters but why? They're exploiting the rules of MMA to further their careers. The only thing I can say in their defence is that strikers like Dan need to learn how to knock these guys out before they get taken down or work on their Jits. Ju Jitsu will always be the answer to these guys once on the ground. Who wants to take Demian Maia down?

In terms of real fighting wrestling and slightly less so Ju Jitsu are limited to 1 on 1 fights. Any more than one and their friend will run over and kick your head off and that's the end of you. Sad but true so for street fighting you'd better learn to strike. Try getting surrounded by 6 guys who want you dead. You'll really wish you'd learnt to strike like Anderson Silva not roll around like Gray Maynard. But I digress. This MMA is after all a sport.

My outlook on it is this..... If you don't like it, fan or fighter, find a different sport : )



Anyone who has been watching MMA since its inception, knows that the same exact things were said regarding BJJ in the 90's. The bottom-line is Mixed Martial Arts is an ever growing, ever evolving sport. The name of the game is adaptation and it will happen, just as it always has. For those that cannot adapt, they will become extinct. Natural Selection at its finest my friends.

True. People used to chant "gaaaaaaay" or "hooomoooo" every time a fight went to the ground. Fortunately the fans have gotten smarter, now they just have a bit further to go before they can wrap their heads around the merit of wrestling in the sport.