Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez: A question of weight
Posted on June 30, 2010, 06:53 AM by Anton GurevichUFC Heavyweight Champion Brock Lesnar will return to the Octagon for the first time since UFC 116, against probably his toughest opponent to date: Shane “The Engineer” Carwin. Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin are a new breed of Heavyweight fighters, who cut weight to meet the 265-pound mark at the weigh-ins, and viciously demolish their opponents 24 hours later inside the cage. The fight between the two will determine who’s the undisputed king of this “new breed”.
Today, we can easily divide the top MMA Heavyweights around the World to two groups. The first one includes Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin, Frank Mir (if he stays in his current shape), Alistair Overeem and Brett Rogers. The others are Fedor Emelianenko, Cain Velasquez, Junior Dos Santos, Mirko Cro Cop, Minotauro Nogueira and Fabricio Werdum: fighters who travel between the 220-250 marks at the weigh-ins, and represent a quite different breed of Heavyweights.
When you have a completely two different groups of fighters in the same weight class, the fight between the two top representatives of each group is the one that can truly determine who’s the best in the World.
I am not trying to take anything from the future victory of Brock Lesnar or Shane Carwin. Yes, the winner of that fight has every right to top the Heavyweight rankings. But again, the future bout against the already-proclaimed “Group B” King Cain Velasquez will be the deciding one.
Velasquez weighed 243 pounds in his last bout against Minotauro Nogueira at UFC 110, twenty pounds less than Lesnar and Carwin will weight at UFC 116. The impact of the fight between Carwin/Lesnar and Cain Velasquez on Heavyweight division could be the same as the impact of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu on MMA. Fighters will have to adapt, and that’s why Cain Velasquez will have a huge responsibility on his shoulders, proving that you could succeed as a Heavyweight even if you are not a Lesnar-type fighter.
UFC 116 will determine who is the #1 ranked Heavyweight in the World, but the future fight against Cain Velasquez will truly prove who’s the best. When this fight happens, it will not be a question of who fought who and the way of victory. It will be a question of weight.
Comments
Those fighters in group 'B' mentioned why not having the sign they for the most part (Big Nog aside) use their speed which can be just as or more dangerous.
Of course weightin 30 or 40 pounds more than your opponent is an advantage in certain areas (like if brock is pancaking you to the mat) But with someone like Werdum as we say keeping the weight off and staying lien offers him the flexibility and hip speed to counter that.
I don't see the need to separate the heavy weights by weight, they fight where they are comfortable and where they think they will be the best.
Note last word first line = size, my bad
Lesnar is the best p4p, even if he wasn't 260 pounds he could take on anybody.. his striking, wrestling, submissions and ofcourse his GnP makes him the best in the world at the moment.. if he dropped down to other weights he could clean out the divisions.. you really think Anderson Silva or GSP could take him on?
You guys forgotten already what he did to mir, couture and herring?
Love Cain...............
I wish all these fighters (UFC/STRIKEFORCE? ETC) could compete in a PRIDE like tournament to prove who is the best P4P fighter...That would be awesome for the fans...Unfortunately, Dana will never allow this dream to happen.....
That would not prove who the best fighter was necessarily because things like injuries will come into play and who got who in the draw...
There's a huge strength disadvantage though weighing 30+lbs. Remember before UFC had weight classes?
Yeah, Mir prescribed to the "stay lean and flexible" strategy which resulted in hamburger face. Imagine Jose Aldo against Anderson Silva....Aldo can be as fast as he wants to be, but once they engage....guess what, it will be like a Doberman against a Beagle...no matter how scrappy the Beagle is, he's gonna be lunch.
Actually it was my breakfast, but ya you're right
Dude you're not like one of those To Catch A Predator sex perverts stalking me I hope?
rofl are you serious?
ston3dpony you crack me up. p4p best lmao 4 - 1 already. fedor gsp aldo silva penn p4p best not brock.
omg retard hit your head off the wall
WTF Brock has not got worldclass striking or submissions. He is an excellent wrestler, very strong and is the most athletic 260 pound + fighter i have ever seen. Brock dropping down is unrealistic but what we can do is ignore his size and asses his skill set intelligently to those you mentioned.
A Silva is a light year ahead in terms of striking sorry no try a galaxy ahead and has better submissions. The same goes for GSP plus GSP displays excellent wrestling in mma. After taking all that into account GSP's skill set out weighs both so he'd be a better candidate than Brock for p4p no.1
Recently, what a childish and simply stupid commend i ever see you posted dude .omg
Forgive me for a not perfect English speaking (:
Just face the true and let's get off Lesnar " fat ass" dude ! you talked like Mr. Lesnar or Mr. Dollar to you is god of HW P4P in the world and what the hell gotta do with AS and GSP could take on Mr. fat ass .LMAO
HaHaHaHaHaHa! Oh.... You were serious!?
Fake pony get a life.
you're joking....right?
i think cain can do it
Yeah, considering that Randy out wrestled Brock I would have to agree that Brock isn't going to have any advantage over Cain. Carwin might just destroy him though. It will depend on whether or not Cain can keep him on the ground I think. It might end up looking like GSP V Alves.
try trolling harder
Try learning to read.
I've been saying this forever. Has anyone ever just play fought or wrestled with someone that is bigger than you by 20, 30, or even 50 lbs? I workout constantly but still its hard to overpower someone who is bigger than you. I'm not saying weight is always the deciding factor but having more weight can make up for having a little less skill. That is why you constantly see people moving down in weight. Most people know its smart to be a bigger guy in the weight class. I can understand why the UFC wouldn't want to make another weight class though. It would hurt how deep that division is.
I've found that to be true when it comes to any type of competition that includes grappling (obviously). I fought at open weight a couple of times in the "old days" and someone who outweighs you by even as little as 10 pounds (if they have some skill), can have an advantage, especially when the "rules" are not 100% clear. Fighters that outweigh you by 20 pounds or more can have a huge advantage, if they know how to use the weight even somewhat properly. What can end up happening is it may throw off a potential game plan completely, like forcing one to stand, strike, and dodge while the much heavier opponent tries to basically grab you and fall on you, when all along your hopes were to grapple. Regardless of how much stronger you might be, this can be a very legitimate concern in the HW division, not to the degree that I just explained, but still a concern. I can easily see how someone like Cain may have a harder time with Lesnar or Carwin for sure. Not to say he can't beat them at that level, but the weight difference would definitely factor in.
i have wrestled with mates many times im about 13 stone now but used to be 11 1/2 when i wrestled with mates and often won guys 16 stone upwards. a little bit of technique overcomes size all day, and big does not always equal strong, i find some smaller guys just as strong.
Wrestling is more about balance than size. I've fought or wrestled guys bigger than me by the weights you described, but they won't outright overpower you unless your stance is making is so that their weight gives them an advantage. That's how randy...who was PUNY for a heavyweight was really overpowering Brock, so that Mir saying size was an issue is a joke.
If size made that much of a difference, martial arts wouldn't even exist. In the heavyweight divison there's alot less technical skill period really, so people rely more on their weight and power to make up for it.
That being said, the B group was mostly people who are abit past their prime. I think cain is really really overrated, i totally wasn't impressed with his victory over congo, he'd lose to Brock or Carwin unless he had a really lucky day
Having said that, we now have weight classes for a reason. I agree that fighters like Brock or Carwin do not need to make apologies for being at the top of the HW scale, nor should thay be considered advantageous for doing so. It's up to the individual HW fighter to decide what weight they are most comfortable at, or if they should drop to LHW. Weight can make a difference, no matter how small at this level of competition. If the UFC felt it was a big issue, they would set HW at one weight number, just like MW and others.
Yea I agree that no one needs to make apologies but weight is an advantage. That is the reason for weight classes in wrestling boxing and MMA. As fast as Aldo is, he would never knockout Lesnar.
Yeah, wt can be an advantage, but it can be a hindrance also. All of that wt is a real strain on the heart and lungs. Where Lesner and Carwin have a wt advantage, Cain has a speed and endurance advantage. They don't cancel out but they mean these two groups of fighters need to employ different strategies and there is really no clear cut advantage for either side. Hell, Randy is a tiny HW and he looked pretty damn good against Lesner.
Completely disagree with the entire premise, sorry. There are weight classes for a reason. It's no more legitimate to criticize Lesnar if he makes weight, than it is to criticize Anthony Johnson for dumping weight. If people cannot fight in their own weight division because they're too small, then perhaps they should cut down to the lower division where they will have the size advantages. Shane and Brock do not need to apologize for being bigger and stronger, and size alone does not win fights. They may be #1 and #2, not because of their size, but because one hits like Mike Tyson and the other is a super-human elite wrestler who dwarfs a normal human being. If size and weight advantage were all that mattered, Hong Man Choi and Zulu and Bob Sapp would be the greatest, and Fedor would never have even been able to compete. Lesnar is massive, but he's also agile like GSP. Shane is massive, but he's also an elite supremely trained wrestler. They're both fighting at a level they deserve to be fighting at. Other fighters are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact someone like Brandon Vera, or Anderson Silva, will ever be able to take the HW belt.
Mir made a big mistake wasting his time putting on all that muscle, it wasn't even remotely near enough, and now he's got to cut to LHW if he ever wants to make another title run.
No need to say sorry. My goal is to express my opinion and to create and interesting debate.
I never criticized Brock Lesnar for making weight. I just think that he represents a certain group of Heavyweight fighters in the UFC, that has to beat the representative of other group: and that is Cain Velasquez.
no brain kid go get a life lol
Since you brought up tyson, it's also a great point. He dominated heavyweight boxing like crazy until his mind got the better of him, he was only 215lbs and 5'10 or 11....but who was really stronger than him at that time? he knocked guys around like they were 60lbs light yet he was also a puny heavyweight, how do you explain that if weight is such an issue?
Weight is really only an issue in the face of inferior strategy or skills, heavyweights in MMA as a whole aren't really known for strategy
It's a great article. You have the common sense to make the argument without the usual nonsense. I was really referring to those people who cry about weight cutting and size advantage. Obviously that's not what you were doing with the article. The fact is that size and strength are advantages, that's just the way it is. You're right that there are two classes of HW's. Lesnar, Shane, versus everyone else. You can say the same about all weight divisions though. Some people are monsters in their division, some people are small in their division. If they make weight, they make weight. A lot of people like to use it as an excuse. It will be the excuse if Lesnar and Fedor ever fight. It's not a fair fight, because Fedor small and out of shape. The fact would remain that Lesnar is the dominant of the two at HW. If he needs a size advantage, he should fight at Light-Heavy.
Where are those responses from people that cry about weight cutting or having a size advantage?
Anywho, i think most of the fighers should bulk up, some should try and drop down to 205. You're never gonna win fights againts a shane or brock when they know they have a size advantage, it will be a brock vs herring or shane vs mir all over again, control against the fence or on the ground. Speed is nothing when a monster is holding you and he doesn't want to let go for a whole 5min at a time.
Great post btw, Anton.
@ston3dpony
I wouldn't think it would be an excuse. More like a reason. Brock is great at wrestling because of his size and strength. He knows how to use it to his advantage. Have you ever eaten a 1 lb steak before? Now take 50 of those and that's how much more muscle Lesnar has than Fedor. No one is saying its unfair but that is a reason in Brocks dominance now and in the future. People take steriods for a reason. And no I'm not saying Brock is juicing at this moment but people take steriods to get bigger. Its an advantage.
4 - 1 is hardly dominant and being off for over a year leaves alot of questions to be answered. he undoubtedly has improved since losing his debut, but a 45 yr old randy aint the best win ever and herring nothing special. mir is a decent scalp to take but he 1 - 1 with him,, and you seem very sure brock is not going to 4 - 2 after carwin. fact is there's a handful of hw's now in ufc that have decent chance against brock. if he weren't as big and been a wwe star he probably would never have got signed for ufc let alone fast tracked to title for ppv purposes. he may prove to be a good champion and become dominant but he has a long way to go before that is an accurate description of him.
I would like to see Brock's muscle to fat ratio or mass index. Again , when brock says "your not 265lbs to bad" you know he means muscle.
Brock cuts 30-45lbs in water and fat to make 265... I am telling you a Fedor could not handle a Brock. the only thing Brock has to worry about is not getting caught in a submition like Mir did to him
Lesnar is actually at a natural weight of 265lbs now. He's not cutting. Because he lost that weight from being sick, and he's on a healthier diet now, he's going to walk in a very lean and rested and ready to explode 265lbs. He was sick last time he fought, that effected his training and his performance. He's healthy now. I think he'll do better without the drain of having to make a dramatic cut. What he loses in weight to lean on people with, he'll gain in speed on his feet.
He would also have to worry about catching Fedor's nuclear right hand.
Can we just keep Fedor out of a UFC thread about UFC heavyweights for one day.....PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE..I beg of you....
Anything is possible but i doubt Fedor would have a chance to throw that right. Spear tackle and Gnp , brocks world.
Its not as if Cain couldnt put on some more weight if he wanted to. Furthermore, Lesnar would still be a skilled wrestler even if he were lighter. There is a long list of fighters who ventured into MMA with a less accomplished wrestling background who did very well, some even dominated and they did so at a much lighter weight.
@SUC
Not fighting someone 50 lbs bigger. Trust me it matters.
You missed the point. He is skilled whether he is heavy or not.
fedor beat someone over 1 1/2 times his own weight, gracie beat many bigger opponents. technique usually wins over size. now if and i mean if, Brock can improve his technique considerably he could be a major force at hw, only if.
@SUC
My bad. No one said he wasn't skilled so I didn't think that was the main point.
he has some skill but overrated he struggled against a 45 yr old much much lighter. if they'd weighed the same he'd have been owned
A very non-valid point. Most have struggled against Randy Couture in a wrestling match.
Yea they have... It has already been insinuated on this thread as well. Not to be a prick, but you kinda just did in your response haha, "Not fighting someone 50 lbs bigger. Trust me it matters." Fair enough, no?
Ok for the record Brock has skill. He wrestles. That's his main skill. He fast and has heavy hands. We on record now? Hahaha! OK now all I'm saying is weight matters and makes a difference. In no way am I saying its the only factor so no Bob Sapp crap please. But seriously whoever argues that it doesn't help whatsoever is crazy. And I'm not saying you said that. Anyone who has played a physical sport, wrestled, or even powerlifted can tell you this.
Fair enough, but thats why it is the HEAVYWEIGHT division.
Even if he was lighter, he could still be proportionately as massive compared to the lighter division as he is now. Anthony Johnson is proportionately, relatively, just as big as Lesnar. He can cut 50lbs before a fight. And, if he can make weight, then more power to him. It's part of the game, he's good at cutting weight, it's a legitimate advantage.
as someone who has wrestled for years i will tell you this, the HW division wrestlers have the least skill. brock was essentially so good because he was one of a very few guys in his weight class who wasn't wrestling with somewhat of a high fat %. he was all around quicker faster stronger etc... but i never remember him showing more skill than a strong double leg, but in the HW division in wrestling the guy who can get on top the other tends to win the match. brock likely has less technical skill than GSP,Koscheck,Evans,etc... because the reality is that HW wrestlers just don't tend to have the agility,the flexiblity, or simply quality training partners to develope them.
i would be willing to bet that if carwin got on top of brock somehow; brock wouldn't know what to do.
I agree 100%. Randy showed that by outclassing Brock in the wrestling game. If Randy had turned that fight into a wrestling match he would have won. It broke my heart when Big Nog won and cost Randy the rematch. It also irritated me that Big Nog didn't get a shot at Brock for his efforts but the Fertitas love Mir so there you go.
No idea what fight you watched.
The one where Randy reversed every dominant position Brock got and dominated him against the cage before getting caught with a lunch box. If you didn't see that you are retarded.
most HW's probably don't cut weight since their natural weight fall in between 225 - 265. I recall Mir putting weight and got up to 260ish when he fought Brock the 2nd time.
In Brock, Carwin, Overeem, those guys have to cut to down to 265.
There is a BIG difference between naturally being 290 + lbs and someone that puts weight to reach 260 lbs.
Overeem is listed at 253 lbs. I could be wrong but I don't think he would bother cutting to 253 if all he had to make was 265. I think he fights at hi natural wt. He sure doesn't look like he needs to cut.
Even though he got KOd by Arlovski? I don't necessarily think that disqualifies him as I think an Arlovski with his head on right is trouble for anyone but does that make a difference to you?
Good point but the Arlovski V Werdum fight wasn't really a top performance for either fighter. I think that if Roy beats JDS he is at least approaching the top ten. He is definitely top ten in the UFC's HW if he manages that.
if you don't weight 265 pounds that's your own damn problem lol
they need to make the weight from 205 to like 245 because the weight difference is too dam big. Put as many weaks as you want but Brock is only good because of his size. If he was cains size he would get raped
Pay attention. Cain is a wrestler... Brock is a wrestler... One is more accomplished then the other at their respective base skill.. Everyone has an opinion tho.
Weight isn't anything new though. K1-phenom Semmy Schilt weighed ii at 300 lbs (6 ft 11 in). Bob Sapp is 300 and weighed in at ~375 when he fought Nog (Bob at his time was way more scary and powerful than Brock). Tim Sylvia walks around comfortably at 300 lbs and got his ass handed to him by (LHW) Randy.
We've seen that this isn't a huge factor in HW through Pride's open weight and fights like Fedor vs. Sylvia/Schilt/Rogers... or Randy vs. Sylvia... or Nog vs. Sapp; and all this hype about weight is exactly that - hype. If you don't master all the elements of MMA someone will exploit you. If you're Carwin or Brock you're just waiting for some dude who can stay out of range and punish you with combinations, speed and skill - so says history...
in a few years if the growth continues there will probably be enough talent for hw to come down and shw to start, but right now talent is too thin
Their needs to be a heavy weight and super heavy weight division. 205 to 265 is too much of a gap. All the other classes have between a 15lbs and 20lbs limit, before you reach the next weight class.
there should be two devisions in HW. 205-235, 240-265 or something similar. Although i don't want it to turn to boxing where they are a billion weight classes separated by 5lbs. But with time i think there will be an addition of one or two more weight classes.
Can we add some smaller weight classes? I only weigh 135 when I am in shape. Can't I play too?
it seems like nobody wants to credit brock with anything other than being big comments like "randy out wrestled him" are foolish watch the fight again they pretty much were at a stalemate when it came to wrestling. also saying cain has better wrestling is equally as foolish brocks has a way better wrestling backround Cain 2 time all american brock 3 time all american 1 time div 1 champion runner up 1 time div champion. nobody is asking you to like the guy but igve him some credit where credit is due
I disagree but if it was a stalemate that still shows that size isn't as big of an issue as some people seem to think. Also, I am pretty sure Cain wrestled at a lower weight class than Brock and as some one else already pointed out, the HW division in collegiate wrestling is much less competitive than the smaller divisions. Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that Brock is a decent wrestler and I stand by that. He is not however, a wrestling phenom. He was just a very athletic guy in a division populated by fat kids.
A guy that was a muscular 500 lbs would have a heart attack and die crossing the ring (if it was fat he would die leaving the locker room).