He submitted Fedor so hes got to be Top 3, #1 even..
Not so much. It was just his night. The top tier of fighters are consistently better than the rest. Not knocking him, but there are a lot of guys out there that could beat Fabricio,.....including: Brock, Shane, Fedor, Alistair, Cain, JDS, etc... Just because Fedor got caught by a BJJ expert on his night of nights, doesn't remove Fedor from the top tier, nor does it catapult Fabricio up there.
It's not that simple. Think of other sports, for instance Baseball.....if your team just has a great night and you knock off the top team in the league, does it put you atop the league? Nope. It's about consistency and quality of record.
This is obviously my opinion, but that's what the post asked for.
My top 5 list would be;
1. Winner of Carwin/Lesnar
5. Loser of Carwin/Lesnar
Explain to me how in the world do you have Cain and Carwin infront of Fedor?
where is Dos Santos then?
He knock Werdum out cold. And where is Allister he's not in your top 5?
Carwin will only be in front of fedor if he wins and i don't think anyone will disagree that on July 3rd the winner is going to be the best heavyweight in the world, and as for cain, he is undefeated almost all his wins are by stoppage and also the fact that Fedor lost by stoppage takes him down a bit from the heavyweight ranks
I disagree. I think it is obvious that on his best night, Randy can beat Brock, so if he wins he still isn't top 5. If Carwin beats a guy who really isn't top 5, that does not put him at #1. Just my opinion.
Cain did not beat anybody in top 10, except Big Nog. I think Fedor should be still # 1 only until the winner Brock/Carwin.
7. Dos Santos
9. Big Nog
10. Antonio Silva
fedor hasnt fought anyone big no reason he should even be on the list cain would kill him dos santos would kill him cain would brock would hell if he lost to werdum he would lose to mir overeem would murder him the list goes on and on fedor hasnt fought anyone that is good he fights no bodies
uve got to be kidding me.. #1??!
It actually not your opinion, its fact. That is how rankings work : )
Great opinion. No team in professional sports goes undefeated, the sun even shines on a dogs ass some days. Werdum isn't a top tier heavyweight, but he did his homework and discovered than unlike alot of fighters, Fedor charges into a guard after knocking a fighter down.
He just took advantage of the situation, well played, but it doesn't change his innate ability or potential to defeat top tiers when they don't make a fatal and obvious mistake
It depends on whether the rankings are biased or not. I've recently been looking into that more.
Fight! Magazine isn't specific enough with their rankings. So right now they are not legit.
MMA-ELO does unbiased rankings, but they haven't added in the werdum vs fedor fight and they might be missing a couple of other fights as well.
People lately have been stating that brock vs carwin will determine the best hw in mma and saying it is a fact. It can't be a fact if it is biased =(.
Whats funny is that before Fedor lost a lot of ppl had no problems with such rankings. One thing is consistently true however, Lesnar was #2 on all of them, which means that he is now #1 by default. However, if that upsets anyone, then dont bother getting angry and trying to argue, you win, you win, mercy, mercy, uncle, I tap, I tap....
If he beats the no.1 he should become the no.1. Same thing happened when Serra beat GSP.
On a more subjective note.
10) Bigfoot Silva
Serra's no.1 spot on Sherdog:
are you serious when fedor actually fights someone good really good then u can maybe say hes 10 but hes not that good like if ur dumb enough to run into someones guard when u know they are wicked good on their back thats a amateur move
On a unbiased ranking system like ELO, brock is not even in top 25 mma hw :S. They have all his fights entered in as well. Also, I was never fine with the current way rankings were going. I have mentioned unbiased rankings before =)
Well, whatever ranking you want to go with feel free to do so of course. Thats crazy to not have the HW Champion in the top 25 rankings tho, so I would question the validity of that system. Again tho, use whichever one you feel suits you. All I was saying was that whoever was #2 before that fight is now #1 and that if someone that is maybe #10 on the list beats the guy who is #1 he does not jump to #1..... Thats just fact based on the way rankings work. I think you already acknowledged that anyway. I thought Lesnar was regarded as #2, but if I am wrong, then so be it. As far as who goes where, I wouldnt like to be the guy assigned to make that call. My comment about those who had no problem with the rankings previously was not aimed at you btw : )
As far as Serra goes, this discussion was in regards to the HW division.
True about Brock. If you look at Fight Matrix he is no.1 though. Ray Mercer is 13th...
MMA-ELO has it's own problems - like Barnett at second (still?) and Nog ahead of Cain. How is Bigfoot Silva in front of Werdum when Fabricio has beaten him and has a way, way more impressive record?
MMA Conseus Rankings isn't very reliable either since it's mess of subjective rankings and most people are subjected to foolishness. Mir 5:th ahead of Ubereem and JDS anyone?
As long as there's people writing these algorithms and meta-rankings, there's no such thing as a truly unbias ranking imho. It's all opinion in form or another.
Fedor, I agree with you on the last paragraph. But there are rankings that are more biased than others. Wouldn't you want to go with the least biased ranking? When we type up an easy for school, we want to get the least biased and most reliable resources. Same with studying someone who is running for office (learned that from my government teacher who has a masters degree).
Btw, both of you can answer your own questions by understanding what an ELO Rating System is.
MMA conseus rankings is definitely biased. Just as long as one of the top 25 major sites that contribute to it is biased. If all of them used ELO system, which is the least biased, most factual, and used by many professional sports, then it would be a different story.
I was wondering if it is more based on statistics and numbers than anything else? I asked because of Brock being excluded, which would make sense if it were because he only has 5 fights. I will check it out tho. Thanks for the tip.
I know how ELO works. FightMatrix is ELO + some factors to fix some of it's issues but still not perfect.
A system incorporating ELO like FightMatrix but better tuned, would be best imho. But again - the problem would be the guy "tuning" it to "work with reality"...
Top 3, defenetely... that is pure talent right there...and not just because he beat Fyodor.
Not to bad... Cant knock it without sitting down and giving it some thought. The only area that immediately gets a little confusing is 4-6.... I feel like those 3 names belong there, but its tough to pick which order. That may be the right order, just saying those 3 slots are close. Of course this Saturday will determine who fills in that #1 spot. Technically, based on how rankings work, by default Lesnar is number one at this moment, but understandably a lot of guys do not want to admit it... Come Saturday tho, they may just have to.
I'm actually a Lesnar fan but i gotta pick Carwin, Lesnar is more athletic but he won't dominate Carwin on the ground like he did Mir. Plus Carwin's KO power is inhumane Brock doesn't even have that KO power.your right 4-6 are difficult slots. I got Dos Santos in 4 because he's displayed great stand up from day 1 as opposed to Cain who's seem o be improving. And i think both would beat Fedor just like i picked Werdum to beat Feodr. I've said this before and been weaked but Fedor being inactive and not fighting the best is why he lost to werdum. If Fedor joined the UFC straight from pride he wouldn't have went undefeated for so long UFC champs in particular are tested 2-4 times a year that into account before you weak me
When Lesner was tested 2-4 times a year. Last time it was a year ago and 8 months before that? Fedor fought more times with better opponents than any of those UFC fighters. Dos Santos fought 3 times already with the World War I veterans. Cain fought only Big Nog and Ben Rothwell. Carwin - Mir and Gonzaga.
Oh boy.... Listen, Lesnar is new to MMA and was deathly ill. You have no way to know what he will do in his career. However, we know where Fedor stands. So I dont get it... Maybe I missed something.
Regardless whether he was sick or not, he still did not fight for a year. We are not taking about hypothetical fights. Apart from Lesner, who else as the UFC champion fought 2-4 times a year?
Ok, my apologies... I mistook your agenda here as another nonobjective Lesnar assault.
Pretty much my top 10, or 9. I had Werdum at 6 or 7. He beat Fedor but you have to look at the whole picture. Beating Fedor certainly doesn't launch him to number one.
2Drunk....you could be right. Nelson is a wild card. I haven't seen Dos Santo's chin tested yet. Nelson is a master of submission as well hitting hard. Kinda like the American version of Fedor. His weakness is fast powerful strikers like Arlovski. It will be a good fight.
Nelson by belly choke. : )
I still believing JDS will win, but I have the same funny feeling....This year some unbeatables have been beaten... Machida, BJ ( in LW division), Fedor...
I was actually thinking Big Country for one of the higher slots as well. I really want to see how well he does in his next fight though......he may very well surprise a few against JDS.
Very interesting guys. Say Nelson beats JDS. Where would you put JDS after that?
I definitely can see Nelson beating JDS but I don't think Nelson would have a chance against Shane, Brock, or Cain. I think JDS would have a chance against those 3. Just a matchup thing in my mind I guess.
Better question: Where do you put Fedor after this? It wouldn't be fair to put him above Werdum
4. Dos Sontos
9. Roy Big Country Nelson
I still don't understand how come Dos Santos and Cain are in front of Fedor. Dos Santos is famous for only taking down Werdum, which I still if they meet now, it would be a different story. Dos Santos barely won deeply depressed Cro Cop, very old Yvel and Gonzaga who lost to everybody. Again Carwin took only Mir out just only recently and Gonzaga. I believe before telling that Fedor does not fight the top competition, all those top guys should fight each other first, otherwise their opposition is weaker than Fedor's.
By that same logic who has Fedor beaten recently? This is not to bash Fedor as a fighter, but only to question your logic here....
My logic is very simple. Lets take 2008, 2009 and 2010 Sherdog rankings at the time of a fight.
Fedor - Tim Silvia (June 2008 - 4th), Andrey Arlovski (Jan 2009- 3rd), Rogers(top 10). It is not Fedor's fault that they lost fights after, they were relevant contenders.
Carwin - Wain (Oct 2008), Gonzaga (March 2009 - top 15), Mir ( March 2010 -4th)
Cain - Congo???, Rothwell??? and Nog(top 10)
Lesner - Couture (2008 - 3rd), Mir (top 5)
Dos Santos - Werdum (October 2008 - 7th).
Simple math, I don't see those guys beating the top opponents to be called the top competition. They have not fought each other yet to be higher than Fedor. I just want to be fair to all the fighters.
I see the point that it is "honestly" difficult to place Fedor.
Yea, but you even just noted that they did beat at least one or two guys in the rankings. Without many competitive HW contenders, beating someone higher ranked will get you a spot higher up the ladder. Point being is that in recent time JDS beat Werdum, Cain defeated 3 strong HW contenders, one of which was Nog, Carwin took out 3 opponents, including Mir, in a very convincing fashion, and Lesnar has obviously defeated the right guys, as he is the current champ. Part of the puzzle is who they defeat and in the case of Carwin for example, how convincingly they do so.
My thinking is if Werdum fought .............. would he beat them 6 out of 10 times.
Carwin - no
Lesnar - no
Fedor - No
Cain - No
Dos Santos - No
Overeem - No
I'd say maybe about 7th
I once remember saying werdum is now #1 hw, but I realized when it comes to rankings it doesn't work out like that. The most accurate way to rank fighters is by the ELO rating system which is used by many professional sports.
Is that system mainly based on statistics and numbers? That is the only way I can see Lesnar being excluded from the top 25 as u said he was..... After all, he only has 5 fights.
After this weekend:
6. Dos Santos
10. Antonio Silva
the only one i don't agree on is lesner. everything else is right on.
Good list! I have to say Lesnar above Overeem just because he hasn't fought enough to really have a record at 4-1 but still the UFC champ (sadly)! I don't even like Lesnar but I gotta give him that.
well if ure saying that carwin is gonna win
then Lesner would be 4-2
the record is no good
and the fight are no better
no way he'll be that high in the ranking
You're right about that. Lesnar would have to start at the bottom of the division and work his way back up if he doesn't get cut (which he should).
since he was unranked before, i would put him in the top 5. he has beat both emelinaneko brothers, allistair overeem,and many other big name heavyweights. i don't think he was given a fair shot with the ufc though. he lost a half hearted decision to andre arlovski, but arlovski was really fighting not to lose. he wanted nothing to do with him on the ground for good reason. then he beat gonzaga for a second time and also beat brandon vera. two guys ufc fans think are great. his next loss to junior dos santos was not something to be ashamed of as we know now. if they were to fight again and end up on the ground, werdum will finish him and almost anybody else in the heavyweight division. he is a multiple time submission wresling and bjj world champion. that means he technique is a lot better and his chokes are a lot tighter than anybody else's. i do believe he still is the most underated heavyweight in the world.
My top 5 would be Brock, Carwin, Fedor, Overeem.
6-10 would be Werdum, JDS, Velasquez, Nog, ?
Lol that's actually my top 9 hws.
I meant my top 8. Lol
if you watch the fight in slow motion, with the sound off, youll see fedor wins
I can't believe the fight was stopped. All I saw was a devastating palm strike by Fedor and then the fight was stopped hahaha!
He is definetly proven himself but he still has some work to do before he is considered top material. 7-10
Man theres a lot of nuthuggers out there! how could anyone still give Fedor #1?
7. Dos Santos
I think Fedor is probably the best fighter out of everyone. But if you haven't faced top competition contenders in almost 5 years and lost the way he did to Werdum you cant be #1.
Lesnar has yet to face anyone even half decent, how could he be #1?
None of the UFC HW got 2 top 10 fights how they get to top 10 i don't get it JDS no top 10 fight Cain finished Big Nog,Carwin vs Mir who sucks,Lesnar vs Mir 2 years ago
Fedor who got his ass kicked by Werdum, who got his ass kicked by a mid-level UFC contender. What's not to get? If a person has a brain, they can judge a fighter according to what they've seen. Duffee for instance is 1:1, that doesn't mean he's going to lose half his fights.
By your line of thinking, Lesnar shouldn't be in the top 10 because he lost to Mir who lost to 3 UFC rejects Ian Freeman, Marcio Cruz and Brandon Vera (on his way out).
Can't wait to see your lists in 18 months. That stuff should be all jumbled up whenever they all fight each other. I have Werdum somewhere in the 7-10 range. If he beats Overeem, he would definitely jump up way higher.
Werdum got lucky...Garuntee it wont happen next time... that is if he does face fedor in an imediate remach instead of Overeem
Jr Dos Santos
(brock is overrated, you will see this saturday)
You've predicted him to lose every fight right? And if he beats Shane, you'll predict him to lose to whomever is next.
What I don't get is if some people are constantly looking to dismiss a lot of top HW contenders, then who does that leave to fill those ranks? Let me guess, this is how some of these people's list would appear if they had their way:
1) Fedor Emelianenko
2) The Last Emperor
5) Fedor Emelianenko
6) The Last Emperor
9) Fedor Emelianenko
10) The Last Emperor
Please accept the sport and its various fighters and talent. Why don't you guys just say what you really mean.... I am not really a fan of the sport, instead I am a fan of branding and hating all things in and around the UFC.
Btw, My point is not to question Fedor's spot in the rankings, it just seems that he is the only fighter that (to some ppl) belongs among the top 10... Every other fighter that is introduced to the rankings, these people want to pick them apart and question their abilities, or ask what they have done.... The thing is, there are NINE other slots to be filled. What order is up for debate, but I am just saying, the denial is strong with some. Some people will do anything to dismiss a fighter who is actively with the UFC. They would rather put Pudz or Sylvia or maybe Cabbage before a JDS or Cain or Carwin.... Its like really?
Quit swangin' on the sack son!
Yeeaa ok bud.... Nice.
Says the one person on Earth who has Tim Silvia at #2. And, Fedor at #1 is completely unjustifiable. A ranking is not a popularity contest, it's not a list of your favorite fights.
Im sorry, Im sorry.... Can u read? I dont understand your response and how it applies to my comments?
Hahahaha! OMG! Fedor is in no way anywhere in 6 -10. He definitely occupies all the 1 -5 slots haha! Change your top 10 please. That had me cracking up literally!
It wasnt intended as a shot at Fedor, he definitely owns his spot in the rankings, while some of the other guys are merely paying rent, but people have to stop being so narrow minded. For example, the guy that replied all emotional about my comment.. He proved my point to the T (666)!! Here I am explaining that there are 9 other spots on the top ten list BESIDES a person's favorite fighter and what does he do? Well, you saw his response. He brought it right back to a single fighter....
uhhh...in order of skill, potential or talent iguess
1. Fedor( Winning attracts idiots, but this is the only HW with a full deck)
2. Brock (could lose to shane, but has a ton of potential. Like him or not, there could be a day when he no longer has any weakness
Tied for 2 if not 3: Carwin is not as intense as brock, but for now he has more direct KO power while Brocks fists seem a little too inaccurate to KO someone. Strong wrestling, but i don't know if he has the drive that comes from defiant hatred that seems to fuel brock
This is actually really really hard. Josh barnett sould sill be up there, steroids or not he'd still have talent, as would mir. I think cain is waaaayyy overrated, anything but impressed with his fight against congo. Nog sadly should be destroying people but i think taking insane hits might have caught up with him? Really hope i'm wrong, but it was painful seeing him lose to cain.
Overeem is probably overrated, like i think bret was. Roy nelson is underrated, he's actually really close to having a full set of skills as well. Stamina, KO power, jujitsu, positional grappling...lots of potential here.
Werdum beat Fedor, but on my list he didn't move at all. Fedor makes alot of mistakes and it's inevitable someone will capitalize, not everyone is going to set him up for success, but he's no joke to be sure. Dos santos is young and has lots of potential, black house is awesome,honestly i don't know much about the guy though, but i think he'd be top 7.
Lesnar and Shane may well be 1 and 2. They could end up fighting 5 times.
So then Lesnar will be 4-7? Lucky if he stays top 100 after Carwin punches him to the moon on Saturday.
im not too sure where i would put him but i think im gonna have to go with 7-10
I put Duffee at 11, but I think we'll see him rise fast. The fact is that his loss to Russow was a greater upset than Fedor's loss to Werdum was. Any other fighter, including Cabbage, would not have been able to withstand that onslaught. He was bouncing sledge hammers off his chin, on the button, over and over, any other HW would have been out cold when Russow got knocked down early in the first. The guy has a freak chin, and was able to withstand a beating and land that one punch that can always happen. If you just watch the fight, and see the damage that is being done, you can see that Duffee would be a handful for any HW fighter.
I wonder if Brock will get dropped if he loses twice running to carwin and then to Cain
10. who cares
7. big nog
10.someone who has fought actually good fighters