Is the current guard in MMA obsolete?

definately a valid point, I think bravo is right about ju jitsu evolving.

No doubt it has and still is, more and more mma fighters these days seem to be training no gi and i expect die hard ju jitsu practitioners would`nt advocate that at all.

Surely that can`t be a good strategy to take unnecessary damage to get the win, perhaps this is part of their downfall.

I certainly agree that this could very well be a huge issue for BJJ specialists.



As a practitioner myself, I enjoy being on my back but will I, in a fight? Hell to the NO. I've picked up alot from Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu but the guard is still open for strikes. While it is a more aggressive form, it still leaves you unprotected. It is a reason why I've decided to pick up some elements from 10th Planet system.



Arrogance is what lead to the demise of the Gracies in Mixed Martial Arts and grappling competitions.

I'm telling you.....they need to start utilizing that third leg. Guaranteed IN IT to win it!

Phil Davis said, the lower belts are becoming more dangerous because they do stuff they shouldn't. Unexpected submissions are now needed. The Korean Zombie just pulled off the twister, I think it would have caught anyone in the UFC cause no one would of expected it. Jiu Jitsu does need to evolve. And I'm saying that knowing jiu jitsu is by far my favorite thing on the planet.

another point is that anyone who really practices no gi usually finds it very easy to avoid subs from the guard. so true about the gracies. kinda a brazilian thing.the reason it was so effective in the past was bc noone expected it.

In no way do i think grapplers are going extinct. It's undeniable that wrestlers are becoming the dominant style in MMA but it still takes an awful lot of talent for a wrestler to inflict a serious amount of damage while sitting in someone's guard without leaving himself open to a submission or sweep. We still see just as many submissions nowadays from in the guard and everywhere else imo.



Some people think that Eddie Bravo is a nuisance and a conman who's just reinventing the wheel but I think he does have some legitimate methods to add to BJJ that would help any fighter's ground game.

True, many inexperienced wrestlers tend to fall victim to a superior BJJ practitioner.



However, the odds of an inexperienced wrestler delivering a vicious blow to a BJJ specialist and knocking him out are much higher than that of the BJJ specialist sweeping or submitting the competitor on top.



Take the fight with Jones and Shogun, Rua was unable to defend or even sweep the inexperienced fighter. And Mauricio has a pretty damn good ground game. There was no way Shogun could have neutralized those shots in the guard he was in.



I agree, Bravo gets ALOT of hate for no reason at all. I've heard it all when people try to discredit Bravo. Gracie fanatics even try to down play the win he had over Royler. In my opinion, Eddie's techniques are the future of BJJ. Not all of them, but in time, fighters like George Sotiropoulos and Shinya Aoki are going to be coming out of the woodworks.

SHARP!

i think the main thing is that the wrestlers we are seeing nowdays are also training bjj so they are aware of the subs a lot more and dont get caught as often. like many people have said sub defense is much easier to learn than sub offense. combine a knowledge of sub defense with superior size and strength add the ability control your opponent and put him in compromising situations plus strikes = defeat for all but the highest level of pure bjj competitor

you think theres a higher chance of someone knocking the other person out from gaurd than that person getting submitted in the gaurd? thats stupid, whens the last time you saw some one get knockedout from gaurd? jon jones came close but thats only because he has freakishly long arms, he doesnt even need to get to fullmount. i think some of these bjj guys just need to be more athletic. its not the 90's wher you could be small nd out of shape and still submitt people, nd im not saying bjj guys are out of shape but look at people like mark bochek or dustin hazlet, they think there bjj makes up for there streanght but thats not the case any more. if the bjj guys are as athletic as the wrestlers who are taking them down, they shouldnt have a problem, just look at anthony pettis, he uses explosive tranistions to get out of any bad position.

Not knock out someone out but cause enough damage for the referee to step in or for one to fall victim to quick sand.



It's not stupid, it's fact. The guard is, in my opinion, noneffective against an elite wrestler with proper submission defense and ground-and-pound.



Being athletic in the guard might play a factor in a fight (just like being flexible) but you can't really say that for sure. The point is the guard provides the opponent on top with one great advantage - gravity. In addition, I don't think the issue is lack creativity and athleticism. Rua is very athletic in his striking and BJJ but he leaves himself a bit too wide open in the guard position.



My point, in this debate, is that practitioners should find a way (like Eddie Bravo did) to defuse or neutralize the threat instead of taking unnecessary risks.

I should have been more specific, you're right.



There are still many successful submissions being executed from the guard position (in mid-level competition), but the number is starting to dwindle, compared to top level competition where the percentage has dramatically fallen.



In the end, I certainly think that the percentage of successful submissions from the guard position decreasing is a sign of things to come in the near future.



Actually, I think the last top tier combatant to score a submission from the guard position was Anderson Silva off of Chael Sonnen. Sure, Chael is easy to submit but he was ranked at #2 and #3 at the time.

Exactly, it amazes me. And the thing is, it was less than four years ago where a guy like Nogueira or Mir could easily lock in a submission from the guard and suffer minimal damage... not the case today. Kimuras, Triangle Chokes, Armbars, etc in elite level bouts are extremely rare nowadays.

I think the scoring system has a lot to do with the current state of wrestling being a dominate grappling system. There are no soccer kicks or knees to a grounded opponent. If you could stuff a take down in pride you are ready to throw some knees to the head, you didn't see to many guys going for a single leg down when the other guy has a full sprawl because you knew you'd get bashed in the head. A lot of UFC fighters will continue to go for a single and they will clinch onto it without fear of being hit hard. Also top position has the advantage, a lot of fighters go for a take down within 10 seconds left to get the extra point. You can't blame them, it's the rules. I feel the unified rules are not balanced.

Agreed, the system here in the western hemisphere favors the wrestler and grappler over the striker.



It is a reason why I always believed that if the UFC's talent ever faced off against PRIDE's talent (back in the day), 70% of PRIDE fighters would have reigned supreme. Let's face it, the average fighter in the UFC closely resembles a one-dimensioal grappler or wrestler.



I really wish there would be changes made to the rules.

True, I think, well, i hope with time we will find a system that really is fair to the fighter that goes to pass, finish, submit rather then just be on top. And i agree that knees should be included, even soccer kicks over elbows. Well if you are going to allow elbows might as well included knees and soccer kicks as well as 12 to 6 elbows. I really dislike a fight when it's called against a a cut, some fighters just bleed it is in their biochemistry/body scar tissue etc. If a knee lands on a ground it'll probably knock you out, but an elbow is mean to "cut" the opponent to get you the win. It's unfair.

I wholeheartly agree with you. Personally, I do worry about the safety of fighters but, for god's sake, if the smaller Japanese fighter can take knees and stomps and soccer kicks then I'm sure the bigger American fighter can as well.

Definitely. I think Pride rules along with their scoring system was the most ideal way to showcase who is the more skilled and superior mixed martial artist. I fear the future of MMA will be merely generic wrestlers/kick-boxers who all share the same bland, often boring fighting style.



Elbows gotta go. It stops fighters from advancing their position (and going for finishes) on the ground, which in-turn leaves the opponent with no room for an opportunity to sweep or scramble (which would make for exciting ground work).

Excellent article and subject.



I agree with those who question the guard position. The point is that wrestlers are learning BJJ--enough to be able to see and counter submissions while on top. Sprinkle in some GnP and ground control, and the round ends with the BJJ guy on the bottom--possibly severely battered.



I view the guard position to be the last option to take in a fight--even if you have sick BJJ. There is a huge advantage having gravity on your side, if you utilize it effectively--while fending off sub attemps and wrist control.

Thank you, I just had to write about it. No one has yet to touch the subject, and to me, it's an enormous issue.



Exactly! Wrestlers (unlike some BJJ practitioners) are not egotistical or arrogant to avoid cross-training. And surprisingly, learning to develop a strong submission defense is no longer a difficult task. A simple change here and there from the mechanics, and a BJJ specialist finds extreme conditions down below.



I'm starting to think that way as well. As great as my guard is and as long and flexible as my legs are, I tend to view the guard as my last option in a fight. I prefer to go for the takedown nowadays. And I hate saying that because I use to be so comfortable off my back. Being able to pull off omoplatas, gogoplatas, armbars, triangle chokes, etc in grappling competitions differ from a street fight or in a MMA bout.

People don't realize how truly difficult it is to finish a fight by submission, especially from a non-dominant position. Uncommon submissions are going to become extinct, and even armbars and triangles are going to be way down in numbers. The fights that do end by submission will be from guys with good wrestling and dynamic grappling who can get on top and work for more simple subs like arm triangles and rear naked's. Throw in the odd guillotine for guys who leave their neck exposed when going for TD's.

We just saw the Twister from the Korean Zombie.



And when did you see a fight with Palahares where he didn't try a heel hook?



I think submissions are harder because fighters are more knowledgeable, but they still happen often. Nick Diaz's submission from guard was a testament to the fact that excellent BJJ practitioners can still submit from guard.

At this point, I think one of the primary reasons Wrestlers are dominating is because things have evolved to a point where fighters are becoming too predictable.



Think back to the 90's or even early 2000's, fighters were able to dominate with various different styles - GnP, grappling, striking, anything.



Now think of most of the fighters nowdays - MMA has evolved and the fighters are REQUIRED to be skilled in all of those things to succeed. But this comes with a price - it makes MMA fighters very similar to each other.



MMA used to be focused on all the different disciplines battling to see which was the best. Nowdays "MMA" is pretty much it's own discipline with it's own style, and very few trainers/camps stray from this.



With the current state of evolution, to continue evolving, MMA fighters need originality. Look at Jon Jones - He's of course an amazing wrestler. But that's not the only key to his success. The true key to his style is how unorthodox he is. His takedowns are unorthodox, his striking his unorthodox, and so is his strategy and overall tactics during a fight. Remember when he had Bader in a sprawl, turned around, and did a backwards leap frog over him? Used in the right situation something as simple as that could win a fight.



Also think of other examples of unexpected offense lately - Silvas front kick KO, Pettis' off the fence kick, Machidas style as a whole. That's the type of thing fighters need. They need to do something unexpected, something people havent seen before. More than anything, they need to come up with their own individual styles, because that's the only way MMA is going to continue to evolve past it's current state.

I definitely agree that being predictable can lead to some problems in Mixed Martial Arts, but like I told someone above, I don't think the issue is completely on the topic of creativity.



The fact is, the traditional practitioner brings in the typical guard (which is used in grappling competitions and depends on a Gi). Sadly, the practitioner also fails to even cross train. All these variables eventually lead to a pattern.



The guard, in my opinion, is a vital key in MMA and without a new and improved system, fantastic grapplers like Marcelo Garcia may never flourish in he sport. Guys like Roger Gracie and Pablo Popovitch have found success early but I think both will run into some roadblocks as soon as they fight stiffer competition.

I have to say that all fighters have their own styles--and some are more distinct than others. But the similiarity in some aspects of style are inevitable as successful tactics, strikes, submissions are copied and the counter learned in a spy-vs-spy intensity of competition.



Since the guard is so dangerous now in the UFC, I think some risky submissions might not be attempted as many subs if unsuccessful often end up in your guard.



Subs are still around--I just saw the Twister for the first time tonight, and subs can be executed from the top--like when BJJ black belt Mark Bocek locked a triangle from mount and rolled to submit BJJ black belt Dustin Hazellet. Or when Jim Miller kneebarred Oliveira or when Matt Hughes wrestling front choked Ricordo Almeida, Silva triangle of Sonnen...I can actually think of a large number of pretty cool submissions I have seen recently.

I really wish I had read this thing a few days ago. I really admire Eddie Bravo and agree with him but the traditional guard is not obsolete and he has never said that. In order to get to mission control you have to get to the traditional guard first. Not only that but sometimes the traditional guard might be preferable. You have to adapt during the fight and if you are getting demolished in traditional guard then moving to mission control an onward is the way to go but totally abandoning the traditional guard would be like abandoning a low lead guard i stand up. In both you are more open but that might be good sometimes and might open up counters and other options. There are and should not be any set in stone rules when it comes to fighting.

Werdum's guard was pretty good against Fedor. Werdum recently claimed in an interview that he has developed a new guard that can protect against damage from GnP. I expect we will see (or not, as the case may be) against Alistair.